Author Topic: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?  (Read 3500 times)

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Offline ChristianG

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2011, 06:13:55 PM »
By the way, I should mention that when Jacques was in trouble in another part of a nasty rapid, Adrian, Bill and myself took off after him. Of us three, only Bill managed to find his way to the swimmer, both Adrian and I were not able to eddy out in the right place and ended up going down the rest of the rapid, feeling pretty useless. Good job Bill! --C.

P.S. My car's air filter was 'in urgent need of replacement', as they said at the garage...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 06:20:34 PM by ChristianG »

Offline Sandra K

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2011, 12:39:51 PM »
Well, I guess this is my last weigh in on this topic. First, Ray - what exactly are you saying - I am out of shape?? I can almost keep up with Heather! And Yes. Starfish bad, cannon ball good.

I have been paddling for almost 10 years on many rivers. I have swam many holes. In fact I swam a rocky nasty hole just before this swim. This one was different probably b/c I just didn't get any air and the force of the water was different. I have never been in a situation before where I kept drinking aerated water and just couldn't will myself to close my mouth to stop and collect my thoughts. Why? Who knows? I do know, on most of my more junior swims, I only thought I was drowning. This was different.

After while I was sitting contemplating life, something Larry said to me is really sticking with me. It was something like this, ' it's the sport. We know it has consequences. That's part of what makes the sport'. Well said. Larry. I think you are getting more kind and wise in your old age.

So, with that in mind, we can do everything possible, but sometimes we are just dealt different cards. Larry was ready when I came out and I believe people would have hauled ass to help more, if needed. That's what really counts in the end.

Sometimes you have to love and hate this sport!



OK, now that I'm not at work, I have a bit of time to contribute beyond being a smart ass  ;)

As someone who has had their share of significant downtime events, a few things I've learned from the swimmer's perspective:

  • You will learn from this swim.  You will be more prepared to better handle the next one and think your way through it.  My first seriously big downtime event (on the Zambezi) prepared me for my next big one (21 seconds under at the Seven Sisters).  I knew what to expect and was able to handle it calmly and efficiently...to choose my energy use and pick my moves wisely.
  • People practice surfing, rolling, and cartwheels, but most people don't practice swimming.  Swim McKoys and other rapids on the Ottawa.  Better to get comfortable with the situation where it is safe than having to learn via trial by fire.  I've seen Ben Marr swimming the pour over at Garb to get down time.  Steve Fisher has intentionally swam #9 on the Zambezi.
  • Ditto for trashy, holes. After a while, threading the needle at Phil's every time does little to help your paddling.  Drop in and get used to getting spanked in a hole where it is safe so you are more comfortable when it counts.
  • Sandra should know this: cannonball good, starfish bad. It sounds like you flushed when you "stopped swimming".  There are certain times to actively swim in a hole (into the pour over if you can), but otherwise you are just wasting air and energy.
  • Without external indicators (like a watch), take the amount of time everyone involved thinks the swim lasted and divide by 2-3.  Time slows in the moment. You have more time and air than you think if you keep calm.
  • Stay fit.  The better your cardio, the better you can get by without air for a bit and you won't be out of breath before you even get to pulling the skirt.
  • While not seasonally relevant, if you are paddling cold water conditions, get a full drysuit.  Some holes are terminal and just won't flush.  Extending your energy levels long enough in a cold water re circulation can be the difference between being able to grab the rope, or not. I've been to that threshold and the drysuit made the difference.

-R


Offline JohnCyr

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2011, 09:34:09 AM »
Glad Sandra is ok! :)

I hate quite alot of downtime at blakeney myself...Freaked me right out...And then I did my raft guide course on the Rouge at levels between 400-650 cms... I never flipped the raft once and always stuck my lines but when others are guiding the raft.. you dont choose when you swim. Let me tell you that I swam the upper canyon wave at least 10 times that weekend and the holes below the steep trout rapid where the bridge is another 10. Those holes are as big as Phils hole but there are 3 in a row. you think youre up to get air and you get washed again.. 3 times. As much as I hated it, Im grateful I got to swim this much in those 4 weekends..

Also.. I purposly paddled under the curtain at Trick or treat falls.. IT stuck me there for a little while and I did get rocked trying to get up etc..swimming under the curtain will also toss you around. I think its a great and safe place to practice swimming and rescue like live bait and rope tossing etc... even anchors and knots..

I actually think it wouldnt be a bad idea to gather a couple of guys and head there for a day and practice rescues and what is mentionned in this thread above. What do you guys think?

Offline Late Ray

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2011, 12:37:46 AM »
OK, now that I'm not at work, I have a bit of time to contribute beyond being a smart ass  ;)

As someone who has had their share of significant downtime events, a few things I've learned from the swimmer's perspective:

  • You will learn from this swim.  You will be more prepared to better handle the next one and think your way through it.  My first seriously big downtime event (on the Zambezi) prepared me for my next big one (21 seconds under at the Seven Sisters).  I knew what to expect and was able to handle it calmly and efficiently...to choose my energy use and pick my moves wisely.
  • People practice surfing, rolling, and cartwheels, but most people don't practice swimming.  Swim McKoys and other rapids on the Ottawa.  Better to get comfortable with the situation where it is safe than having to learn via trial by fire.  I've seen Ben Marr swimming the pour over at Garb to get down time.  Steve Fisher has intentionally swam #9 on the Zambezi.
  • Ditto for trashy, holes. After a while, threading the needle at Phil's every time does little to help your paddling.  Drop in and get used to getting spanked in a hole where it is safe so you are more comfortable when it counts.
  • Sandra should know this: cannonball good, starfish bad. It sounds like you flushed when you "stopped swimming".  There are certain times to actively swim in a hole (into the pour over if you can), but otherwise you are just wasting air and energy.
  • Without external indicators (like a watch), take the amount of time everyone involved thinks the swim lasted and divide by 2-3.  Time slows in the moment. You have more time and air than you think if you keep calm.
  • Stay fit.  The better your cardio, the better you can get by without air for a bit and you won't be out of breath before you even get to pulling the skirt.
  • While not seasonally relevant, if you are paddling cold water conditions, get a full drysuit.  Some holes are terminal and just won't flush.  Extending your energy levels long enough in a cold water re circulation can be the difference between being able to grab the rope, or not. I've been to that threshold and the drysuit made the difference.

-R

Offline DaveH

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2011, 12:06:51 AM »
Well I'm very happy that that turned out OK! I sounds like the Princess could of punched the hole if she had been in her pink boat!

DaveH

Offline Paul Potvin

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2011, 10:12:02 PM »
See you  Thursday @ Champlain Sandra!

Paul:)

Offline Larry W

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2011, 08:07:36 PM »
hi

Do we now call you Princess Mermaid?

The downtime was about 15 seconds which is a long time if you are not prepared and short of breath.

As for the lessons learned, 2 items were missed that should be included.
- Get plenty of rest/sleep the night before. I'll let people's imagination roll with that one.
- look where you want to go ... and not at what you want to avoid. Maybe we should have boat scouted from the eddy that Jacque paddled to just to see the line or route down. Jacque had a good view of what happened in the hole.

2 paddlers were ahead of Sandra. I was the last to paddle.
My words "see that yellow boat ... you don't want to be there"
"watch Jim ... he's got the correct line" Jim's line was to the River right of the hole.
Sandra had the correct line and boat angle up until the last moment and the boat turned downstream ... and I knew she was in the hole.

The water levels were a bit higher than we have done in the past. It is difficult to judge by the online gauge on what water levels are actually present. My first clue was that our normal lunch spot was covered in water.

Larry

Wow. Mermaid. I was thinking a wet log or something like that...

Highlights: Non-paddling - Seeing large turtles laying eggs, a tiny baby bambi, and a moose...(well kind of - just ask Adrienne and Rob!) and the beautiful 'very hilly' hike in...
Paddling - the large slide with a big wave/hole at the bottom and being stuck in a boily eddy, the devil's cellar with the most fun lines ever and big waves. Definitely worth the hike in just for that. The other rapids that are scout on demand were fun too. AND...Big rocks that you can hug as if they are your friend (Annie - we have something in common!).  Okay one more - Not having to receive mouth to mouth from any CDB boy.

Lowlights: Swimming the same hole as last time with sharp rocks (Hey Mike M.) and then swimming an even bigger hole that wouldn't let me out and breathing in way to much 'aerated' water that didn't give me any air. Not being a fish.
 
Lessons Learned:

-150 m hole means a river wide hole (thanks Bill)
-You should find out where the weakest spots are before you paddle it so you know where not to get stuck
-side surfing a nasty hole like that is impossible...you need to try and push your bow into the current and hang on!
-a 10 year old life jacket is not bouyant enough...
-running out of air sucks! so swim for the deep water below or beside or go into a ball...
-reading the river ahead of time is important to do!

Thanks for the fun experience boys!
Sandra



Offline ChristianG

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2011, 03:17:49 PM »
"I retrospect, I think my arms stopped moving b/c I was so focused on trying to get air as I was just breathing in water."

Sandra, I'm not sure what you experienced exactly. I've been in similar situations (think Mixmaster, Lower Moose), but (so far!) had complete and calm control of my body and managed to do what needed to be done, as soon as it became possible to do it. I did, however, ask myself the question whether this is how it would end... But none of this is symptomatic of drowning. However, what you are describing might be related to something far scarier: Please please, all, read the information below about the so-called 'instinctive drowning response' (here adapted from Wikipedia):

===============================================================================================

"The instinctive drowning response is a set of behaviors automatically undertaken by a person who either is, or is very close to, drowning. These are autonomic responses of the body, undertaken without deliberate control, and "represent a person's final attempts to avoid actual or perceived suffocation in water" before sinking. To an untrained observer, it may not be obvious the drowning person is in distress. In fact the lack of visible panic in their movements is because at this point they are incapable of making other gestures or calling for help.

Lifeguards and other persons trained in rescue learn to recognize drowning people by watching for these instinctive actions, since the popular belief about drowning being a violent activity with much movement is misleading. A person may appear to be swimming safely when they are within 20?60 seconds of sinking under the surface. Drowning  is popularized as a highly visible behavior, involving shouting, abrupt or violent movements such as splashing and waving, and visible difficulty. While distress and panic may sometimes take place beforehand, drowning itself is deceptively quick and often silent.

A person at, or close to, the point of drowning is unable to keep their mouth  above water long enough to breathe  properly and is unable to shout. Lacking air, their body cannot perform the voluntary efforts involved in waving or seeking attention. Involuntary actions operated by the autonomic nervous system involve lateral flapping or paddling with the arms to press them down into the water in the effort to raise the mouth long enough to breathe, and tilting the head back. As an instinctive reaction, this is not consciously mediated nor under conscious control.

The victim is "too quiet", and unable to make other life-preserving actions ? they cannot kick their feet, nor swim to a rescuer, nor grasp a rope or other rescue equipment at this point. They may be misunderstood as "playing in the water" by those unfamiliar with drowning, and other swimmers just feet away may not realize that an emergency is occurring. The lack of leg movement, upright position, inability to talk or keep the mouth consistently above water, and (upon attempting to reach the victim) the absence of expected rescue-directed actions, are evidence of the condition."


Offline ChristianG

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2011, 02:59:37 PM »
Very well put Robert. We had a bit of a debriefing about all this afterwards, over (a few) beers at the nice pub around the corner from my house (nice bartender, she kept refilling our glasses for some reason...).

Here are some of the lessons that myself I got from this 4th season of mine so far, which includes recovering not one but two pinned kayaks, lending a spare paddle to an unlucky fellow, and lots of swimmer rescue and throw rope action. So much action in fact that almost one month ago I dedided to post a message that I though EVERYONE would read and consider seriously, no matter what experience level they had:

http://www.cdb-ottawa.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=4403.0

Robert mentions a certain level of complacency, and I tend to agree but on a different level. Here's why (forgive my scientific approach...). At the moment of writing, this thread about one specific trip to the Upper Petawawa has been viewed 233 times, with 17 replies. In contrast, a general post about safety that I wrote almost one month ago has been viewed only 116 times, with only 2 replies including mine. It is not a coincidence that the only real reply came from someone who's been on many remote trips and witnessed a lot of 'accidents'.

In the above mentionned post I outline very basic requirements that every participants should adhere to, mainly adequate floatation and having a throw rope available at all time. This means having it, not your paddle, in your hands while out of the boat scouting, and making sure that it can be reached easily when in the boat if someone else needs it. It is easy to acquire the good habit of taking a rope with you every time you get out of your boat if the rope is attached in front of you or between your legs, instead of behind the seat. Having a throw bag in your hands might mean that you will more often than not be the one at the bottom of a drop providing safety and that you might run the drop last, but hey, you'll get to see a variety of lines before your turn!

Now, about this specific trip: the Upper Petawawa is a different kind of run than most other rivers. It is far from civilisation. At certain levels as we saw, it can be a very technical run. The famous very wide hole that got Sandra simply wasn't there at higher levels. When I saw it, I had just enough time to look for a weak point and paddle really hard to punch it. I came to a complete stop, but I was already over it by then (I credit the boat!). There was no way to punch it in a playboat. The hole that got Jacques was part of a 'threading the needle' move that we had all done successfully before, but it was impossible to do at the level of last weekend. I can go on, but the point is clear I think.

There is however one more comment I want to make. The 4 km hike in, done carrying your boat on your back (the preferred method), is hard. Especially if you bring the kind of boat and gear that will get you through the subsequent run safely. I am not so young anymore and have to manage fatigue, dehydration, and thus enjoy taking a few breaks along the way. I've been a few time close to twisting my ankle on that loose slippery slag, I've noticed the early symptoms of heat shock, and I have to save enough energy to manoeuver my big bulldozer later! Heck, if someone in great physical shape like Brian Maxwell (great canadian athlete, coach and founder of Power Bar) died at 51 of a heart attack, I don't know what's in store for me!

Which brings me to an idea I've toying with. Many of us have outdoor-type GPS (for instance Larry and I have exactly the same device) so that we can in principle always know exactly where we are. Simple accident can be dealt with using the gear we carry, like first aid kits etc. The problem, in case of dire emergency, is how to reach help. Here's where a VHF (marine) radio could help. Although one needs a license which is easy to obtain, such a radio has enough range to contact rescue operators, can be water proof, and cost less than 200$:

http://www.thechandleryonline.com/index.php?cPath=12_173

I was, as I said, toying with the idea, but it's getting more concrete now. Any comments?

On a lighter note, The Devil's Cellar is quite an exhilarating rapid (if you hit the good line--thanks Robert)! You're so surprised to go through unscathed that you might forget simple stuff afterwards and, like me, end up swimming, below everything, in flat water, silly! Thanks Larry for bringing my boat back. Maybe I should just say that it was a test for the empty boat floatation: I had two air bags in the stern, and two in the bow. But I have the feeling that no one would believe me...

--C.


Offline Sandra K

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2011, 02:18:56 PM »
Thanks Ray!  Rob, I don't think you could have articulated the situation any better. I retrospect,
I think my arms stopped moving b/c I was so focused on trying to get air as I was just breathing in water. I had only just started to think, 'wow, I am not gonna get any air, now what'  I knew I needed to command my body to get into a ball and I was starting to will myself, and then I popped up to happily see Larry. Ahh...Larry, now I know why you don't want to be my buddy any more:) The hole rock thing - I think I was so happy to be breathing air that I just wanted to stay there. I have no idea how long I was there, and I am quite sure that I was definitely in shock. When I did get to shore my legs wouldn't stop shaking...

Ahh...but the Upper Pet is still amazing and so is paddling and you cdb people.

Offline Late Ray

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2011, 02:04:25 PM »
But did someone get it on video?


Offline robert monti

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2011, 09:59:58 AM »
Sandra - based on Saturday, if you are heading to the Kipawa, I suggest a larger river runner and a new PFD. 

My reflection on Sandra's swim comes down to this. After more than 10 years of ww kayaking you still get to see new stuff on the river. Some you don't want to see - the top of Sandra's red helmet just at the surface of the water, meaning basically that her mouth and nose were still and hand's breadth underwater. So close and yet so far. The hole was in the middle of the river. She ran out of air and almost blacked out. The river released her and she floated to the surface and held onto to the nearest rock she could grab - for a very long time. She had drifted to within 15 feet from shore and the rest of the way was an easy swim, but she either didn't have the energy, or was in shock, or was just savouring the sensation of air back in her lungs instead of water and wouldn't swim. She hung out there until she was tossed a rope and Larry used the pendulum effect to swing her into shore.  It all ended well.

I think some level of complaceny in the group contributed to that incident. We've all had multiple runs down the Upper Pet. We've seen boaters land in that hole and come out quickly and we have had good laughs about the carnage.  Because we were all experienced boaters in the crew that day and because all of us (except Sandra were in creekers) and because Sandra has been paddling a lot and on harder rivers in Chile, I think everyone just assumed that being off line would result in a surf and a quick swim. I've never thought of that as a "sticky" hole. Generally in boating the perception of risk is higher than the actual risk. This time, the actual risk was higher than the perceived risk.   She got stuck, she went to surfer's left (which is the stickiest part) because she could seen the corner of the hole. But it rejected her spun her around and flipped her, probably before she even had time to catch a breath before going under.  Then she was under. Everyone thought she would quickly pop out down stream. She didn't. She was under and she was under, then there was some flailing arms, her boat and her paddle still in the hole and she wasn't past the boil line. She got pulled back upstream and under again toward the hole. Then just her head resurfaced, no arms. She had stopped swimming. Then she drifted out, her face came up, she sucked in some air and made it to the rock.  From the time of her flip to the time she could breathe again, my guess is less than a minute. Not a big deal if you are calm and you know what to expect.  She wasn't either. Her boat came out about the time that she did. Her paddle didn't.  It took a couple more minutes.  If she had been in the hole as long as her paddle ???

In retrospect we were all lucky (especially Sandra) that it just worked itself out. It just as easily could have been the other way.  I've scouted a bunch of rapids on that stretch but never scouted that rapid, I always just read and run, look for the weakest spot in the hole and it works out. At some levels, that spot is totally innocuous.   

Maybe its time to have a scout and identify a line that avoids that hole and at least let other boaters in the group know what's coming up and what the options are before they run.

Offline Sandra K

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2011, 11:00:51 PM »
Wow. Mermaid. I was thinking a wet log or something like that...

Highlights: Non-paddling - Seeing large turtles laying eggs, a tiny baby bambi, and a moose...(well kind of - just ask Adrienne and Rob!) and the beautiful 'very hilly' hike in...
Paddling - the large slide with a big wave/hole at the bottom and being stuck in a boily eddy, the devil's cellar with the most fun lines ever and big waves. Definitely worth the hike in just for that. The other rapids that are scout on demand were fun too. AND...Big rocks that you can hug as if they are your friend (Annie - we have something in common!).  Okay one more - Not having to receive mouth to mouth from any CDB boy.

Lowlights: Swimming the same hole as last time with sharp rocks (Hey Mike M.) and then swimming an even bigger hole that wouldn't let me out and breathing in way to much 'aerated' water that didn't give me any air. Not being a fish.
 
Lessons Learned:

-150 m hole means a river wide hole (thanks Bill)
-You should find out where the weakest spots are before you paddle it so you know where not to get stuck
-side surfing a nasty hole like that is impossible...you need to try and push your bow into the current and hang on!
-a 10 year old life jacket is not bouyant enough...
-running out of air sucks! so swim for the deep water below or beside or go into a ball...
-reading the river ahead of time is important to do!

Thanks for the fun experience boys!
Sandra


Offline ChristianG

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Re: What are the chance that the Upper Pet trip happens this weekend?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 04:14:24 PM »
Larry is a good fisherman. You should see, sometimes, the kind of fish--sorry, mermaid--he can pull out of a river... --C.

Offline Larry W

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The Upper Pet trip happened
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 12:14:22 PM »
hi

We fought off the bugs ... and the stories of our adventure will come to the surface eventually ... hmm sorta of like Sandra.

I took a GPS for the hike in to measure the uphill gradient and mark a track in from the road. From the profile garnered from the GPS, our resident physicist is correct.

https://picasaweb.google.com/larrywong12345/UpperPet?authkey=Gv1sRgCMmc0rnN9dC-qgE&feat=directlink

Ignore the up and downs on the profile because that definitely didn't happen.

Larry

Larry, Larry... In the past month I have hiked this railway bed twice, and can attest that it IS slightly uphill. But don't take my word for it. Fire up Google Earth, find the start of the railway hike (approx. 45?56'36.12"N,  78? 4'28.54"W) : it's 248 m above sea level. Then locate the put-in (approx. 45?57'1.89"N, 78? 7'54.77"W): it's 271 m above sea level. Now I was never good at math, but you know, over 4 km, that's a little over a 0.5 % gradient.

As for the water filter; very good idea. I've been using a filter-bottle for three seasons, works wonderfully well (despite what Paul says...). It's a Katadyn product, either the 42$ or the 55$ version will do for Canada (there are no viruses in the water here, essentially).

BTW, I have just put this together, and it is very stable and relatively confortable. I added a waist strap and a little strap bringing the two shoulder straps together:
http://kayakhotdogs.blogspot.com/2011/01/diy-kayak-backpack-for-under-25.html

--C.