Topic: Lower Rouge (Elizabeth's drop-->Ottawa river) Saturday

[Bill Schlarb]

Some closing thoughts...

While following this thread and speaking to several members on this, I came to realization that I can appreciate a portion of everyone's point of view.
Having paddled for as many years as I have, the viewpoints expressed can pretty much sum up all the viewpoints one might encounter.
The initial question from John Cyr about how the club is structured with respect to liability is something I would probably have questioned back when I started and why some people may seem overly concerned with liability.

Simply, we're organized as a group of equal individuals/friends who share a passion for outdoor activities.
We've chosen to work with a co-operative model so we don't fall into the bureaucratic paths that other groups have chosen.
Jeremy's description of his "river skills interview/gentle interrogation" is a good example of that.

Cindy, Christian,  Rob Monti and Richard have all expressed good observations on liability and waivers along with the limitations inherent to waivers.

Larry's observation about Lars Romeskie should remind and/or inform folks that we have successfully dealt with this in the past. As interesting aside, I chatted with Lars on the Ottawa back in the summer and he stated that he was glad he paddled and learned river safety from us since, in roughly his words, "most clowns on the river these days don't carry biners or a throwbag ".

As long as we accept our responsibility to look out for each other while paddling/skiing/biking etc. there shouldn't been any major issues.
Also, showing respect to your fellow paddlers when on the river and on the Forum will help maintain the excellent reputation the Club has enjoyed for many years.

If there are other questions about liability issues, contact a member of the Executive and we'll address it.

Thanks,

Bill

[ChristianG]

Jean-Nicolas,

I am not trying to douse flames with gasoline. I do not question the way YOU handled the situation. And of course CJ did an amazing job hooking the rope to the pinned boat. But in the case of the recovery of your pinned boat, do not forget what ACTUALLY happened.

(1) Paul and myself were telling you all as soon as we saw the situation to pull the boat from upstream, the way it got there in the first place. Reply from CJ et al.? That it would mean pulling agaisnt the current, thus impossible to free the boat that way. The current was not that strong in fact, they were wrong, and this was made very clear later.

(2) Instead of pulling it from upstream, a 6:1 (if I remember correctly) mechanical advantage system was set up from ACROSS the river, using pulleys and at least three strong guys, to pull the stern in a direction almost perpendicular to the axis of the boat. They were not able to free the boat this way. I'm willing to bet, however, that instead this did a good job wrapping it around the rock. The damage to the boat, as seen on the last photo below, is consistent with this hypothesis. When it was clear that this method was not successful, it took more than 15 minutes to release the tension in the ropes. That's a lot of force--can anyone in all honesty say that the river current ONLY was responsible for the destruction of the boat, as in "The boat was bent way before we even anchored it"? Is this known for sure?

(3) After the tension was released in the ropes from across the river, it took only a few minutes for Paul, Alex and myself to use the other rope to set up a 3:1 mechanical advantage system from upstream with only carabiners, no pulleys, and pull the boat free.

These are the important parts, to set the record straight. There are a lot of photos documenting the event, I'm not distorting things. I may have been a bit harsh when writing "stubborn young people bent on ignoring the advice of more experienced paddlers.", but no offence was intended--just a statement of the facts. Sincerely,

--Christian Gigault

[JohnCyr]

The outcome of my pinned villain and the way the situation was handled by "the young stubborn kids" has nothing to do with the topic at hand. We were over 15 paddlers there trying to help out so of course many opinions differed. The boat was bent way before we even anchored it. Guess what stubborn kid had brought most of the rescue/pin gear!? I had little to no experience in rescue back then and i knew how to keep calm and asses the siruation when i was pinned. I made it out ok. Its a case by case basis ad judgement call and i think Richard already made things clear.

[ChristianG]

"Accidents ... too many to count and some of them included helicopter evacs. Of course those events involved members older and wiser than any 15 year old."

Indeed Larry. Unfortunately, some current members were not around when those accidents happened, for them kayaking seems to be an entirely safe sport! I do recall trying to rescue pinned kayaks after incidents that could have cost the paddler's life. Not just once, but three times including, in fact, an unsuccessful attempt at recovering a kayak pinned below the last Sister on the rouge, after an imploded skirt. In this case, paddling skills made no difference. Only one of those rescues resulted in the recovery of an intact kayak, in fact. And In the case of one of those unsuccessful attempts, guess who was the owner of a kayak that was destroyed by the efforts of stubborn young people bent on ignoring the advice of more experienced paddlers? Will some people ever learn?

--C.

[Larry W]

http://www.cdb-ottawa.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2955.msg3046#msg3046


The discussion on club liability insurance dates back to 2008. WO does offer club insurance, but it is still highly restrictive. There is a definition on what a trip leader does and the qualifications.... No members in the club has been given the official trip leader status simply because CdB doesn't really lead trips.

If we want to play by the rules. As stated in the waiver.

that as a parent or guardian of a child under 18 years of age, I will
accompany and responsibly supervise that child while they are engaged
in a Coureurs de Bois Club Ottawa Inc. activity, and will accept
responsibility for them;

How did we paddle with Lars many years ago? .... We took on the responsibility when his dad wasn't there.

Want to take inner city kids out and teach them some paddling. Good on you, but it would not be a CdB adventure since the club is not a teaching club.
The Ottawa River Runners has a good program for kids. Bruce had his kids enrolled with ORR for a few years and now that the kids are older, they might be paddling much more with their dad in tow.

See if Martin would fit in with WT's Keeners program for next summer.

Accidents ... too many to count and some of them included helicopter evacs. Of course those events involved members older and wiser than any 15 year old.

Larry

[Andrewdotcom]

The crazy thing to think about is Martin's only 15 so he's got two more years of progression before he's no longer a minor. I've only paddled with him once back in the spring but definitely sounds like he'll be able to push it pretty hard by then!!

[Jeremy Poulin]

I agree with Cindy (thanks for the english, btw lol). I think the only way to an "inner city kid paddle" thing could work would be through a summer camp that has insurance for this kind of thing.
As for the "informal"ness of the CDB, I can't agree more! I was down in Mass for the Deerfield dry fest (fun river, everyone in the cdb I have paddled with could do it, not quite worth the drive, but fun if you're near by) and asked a nice looking group if I could paddle with them (cause you don't paddle alone! lol) and she seemed nice, escorted me to her trip leader, who basically gave me a "river interview" to see if I was "acceptable/skilled" enough to paddle with his group to prevent any liability issues. Questions were "can you roll, do you know these signals, what rivers do you paddle, whats the hardest, do you have/know how to use a throw bag, etc" So for a group of people to just say, "yup, we're paddling this on saturday" is so sweet, it keeps the fun in paddling!
Just my lunch time mini rant lol
jer

[wyszard]

Wow, what a can of worms !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cindy D]

Richard,
The obvious response to your question is to get insurance for the executive members and the trip leaders.  It's very expensive though, the Alpine club family membership is 69$ yearly.   

The other response is to let people judge for them and decide what risk they are ready to take regarding Martin or any other minor.  I have paddled with Martin and I think I would take the risk to bring him with me if you are not there. I once did on the Ottawa and he was showing me the lines.  I trust his parents know in what business Martin is and would not sue me should something bad happen to him.  It is a very personal point of view and we will not get any consensus on this.

As for the inner city kids, I think it's a noble idea but it should only be undertaken by strong and well insured clubs.

Past is irrelevant in this issue, lawsuit is a very modern concern.  Sorry for the know-it-all tone but, I really know everything about this fight, I did it 10 years ago.  At the Alpine Club, Outaouais section, formerly Vertige Club, we used to have canoe and kayak among our official activities.  We were forced to drop them in 2002 because we were not able to get proper insurance for the leaders and the executive members at an affordable price. We are still covered for our climbing activities but we are getting more and more consumed by this stuff, everything is becoming more controlled, standardized and this has a cost.

I like the Cdb the way it is, it is a relief to find such an informal and welcoming club.  I wish it stays like this but it will only take one accident to bring it down, we must be very careful in our decision making and think about the consequences.

Cindy

[wyszard]

Hi everyone,

I like Robert's response.
 
Yes, grieving parents may try to blame  someone for their child's misfortune, this is human nature. I have seen this happen before.
This problem will appear in the future with other young paddlers.

I unfortunately have two conflicting perspectives

1.  Trying to keep a 15 year old happy who happens to paddle better than I do & always wants to go paddling.
     I see paddling as a positive aspect in Martin's development, especially the access to good role models, social interaction etc.

2. To protect the club, and the members,  then yes, as Martin's guardian, he should not be out there without me as his guardian or a "responsible" adult who is willing to be responsible for him.


Now let me add some more fuel to the fire. Over the past year a few of us have been thinking about taking some inner city kids, teaching them some basic paddling skills & taking them out on a river.
How does it work if a parent signs up a minor to the club & the parents do not paddle themselves ?
How would or could we handle this ?

Also, In the past we have had some excellent young paddlers in the club, I am thinking about Lars, & I think that someone mentioned that Adam Chapel was a member for awhile.
How did we handle this in the past ?"

Also we have some younger paddlers coming up, we paddled with Bruce's sons and they are starting to look pretty good.

I think it would be good to get some clarification from the executives & membership.

[Cindy D]

I still think it?s not very classy to tell a teen who could most likely show the lines to a lot of people within the group not to run ANY of the sisters including #1 and 7.

Of course it isn't but hey, he will survive.  Don't apologies too much, this discussion was long due and is very instructive for all of us.  Sometimes, we need a spark.

@Jeremy:Yeah, I was essentially agreeing with Chris.  I made a comparison with the alpine club where we also deal with minors participating in climbing outings.  After a second though, I think it's not a good one because the climber really depends on the belayer ability to catch a fall properly.  I think I could be held responsible if I drop a kid because I fumble with my belay device while the responsibility is more nebulous if I am not successful in stopping Martin running a rapid. Hell, he is bigger than me. 

@Richard: you should definitely ground him, I, too, find him darn too good.   

We care a lot, don't we? So much love for you Mart. 
I'd like to tell you I think this stuff really sucks.  Blame the Americans and their lawyers; they gave us the idea that someone else is responsible for the consequences of our bad judgment.  I disagree completely with this but we all have to play with the established rules. 

[bastien86]

Martin tes chanceux tu es rendu  c?l?bre shah
Oui  je me souviens pourquoi adolescent j avais tant h?te
D'avoir 18ans.

[JohnCyr]

I agree. My tone was rude and I wrote this in the spur of the moment. I appologize if my language offended anyone.

Like you said, I am still entitled to my opinions and I still think its not very classy to tell a teen who could most likely show the lines to alot of people within the group not to run ANY of the sisters including #1 and 7. And then have Adults bail on him for fear of a lawsuit. Like Wyzsard said "please don't project your anxieties about running a rapid onto Martin".   

No wonder he dicided to stay home. I wouldnt wanna spend my whole day in a car and any money to go run a boney class 2 run and watch others who have les abilities than me but are 3 years older run the goods either.

Thank you Wyzsard for your clarifications on the matter and Rob for the legal issue comments and I will keep them in mind when I make a judgement call when I am taking Martin out on the river. I still find it too bad that the issue hasnt been cleared before as I have made some of the exec aware of this issue in the past and this is the third time its happened in 2012 and that Martin called me up quite bummed out about this, hence me getting all worked up in my previous message.

Again, my sincere appologies if my comments offended someone in any way. I will keep it in mind in the future.

JN

[ChristianG]

Thanks Rob for your thoughts. So I wasn't so far off in my analysis. Too bad it has to be that way, but read newspapers in April-May (high school prom season) and notice what parents of injured/dead teenagers have to say... They are almost invariably looking for someone to blame, even if sometime nobody other than the victims are responsible for the tragedy. 

The good news is that Ryszard will get to paddle more often! --C.

[robert monti]

When adults voluntarily assume risk and are responsible for their own decision making if things go badly in a risk based sport there is low risk of a lawsuit. Essentially as adults we accept the risks associated with our sport. The same cannot be said about a legal minor. If the minor is with a legal guardian and the guardian consents and accepts the risks ok. But to say that another adult is not reponsible for him is easy to say in the abstract.  If a minor is fatally hurt a grieving parent will often still launch a lawsuit. The argument would be that the adults in the group who were aware of the risks should have prevented him from running x rapid. You as the adult in the group will be held to a standard of decision- making that Martin would not be in the eyes of the law.  His consent is irrelevant as the law protects vulnerable or voids consent to assumption of risk in those who are not recognized as having legal capacity. So that is why a parent has to sign the waiver on a child's behalf. Negligence in a specific situation depends on a number of factors including duty of care, standard of care, foreseeability, breach and causation. Municipalities have been successfully sued by parents of children who breached a fence and trespassed and then were hurt dirt biking on the property.  I wish things were as simple as presented by Richard  Unfortunately I would not take comfort in blanket statements such as the one made by Richard. If you take a minor into a risky situation and there is an accident, perhaps you will not be sued. But if you are, even if you are ultimately adjudged not negligent, that could take years to sort out and six figures in your legal defense. How many here can afford that risk. Instructors have insurance. We don't.  I have been practicing law for 20 years. Like Christian I would avoid the risk of taking a minor on a trip without their legal guardian/ parent being there and responsible for them. Others will make their own choices. It's all about taking on what level of risk you are comfortable with.