Author Topic: Kayak Paddle Size??  (Read 7736 times)

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Offline ChristianG

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 03:47:05 PM »
(a) AT Eddy 200 cm for sale on Kijiji, here:
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-water-sport/ottawa/ops-at-eddy-whitewater-kayak-paddle/1223424264?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

That is what I use, I'm at #2 now, first one I cracked the blade but it is still useable, and used actually by someone, just not strong enough for creeking. Great paddle, around 330$ brand new (I paid 270$ for my green one brand new on sale), the seller's 320$ price is too high.

Just to be clear: the paddle for sale on Kijiji is NOT mine. I do not know who the seller is. The paddle appears to be essentially new, but nevertheless has an unknown history. So IMHO, the asking price is too high. I would offer something like 260$ for it.

Mine, with the cracked blade, is still very useable for playboating and such, and is currently owned by our own Paul P.

--C.

Offline Francois Leclerc

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 09:26:39 AM »
Thanks Christian.

Offline ChristianG

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2017, 12:12:54 AM »
Some comments, read if you want. No TL;DR I hope... I fixed a few typos:

(a) AT Eddy 200 cm for sale on Kijiji, here:
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-water-sport/ottawa/ops-at-eddy-whitewater-kayak-paddle/1223424264?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

That is what I use, I'm at #2 now, first one I cracked the blade but it is still useable, and used actually by someone, just not strong enough for creeking. Great paddle, around 330$ brand new (I paid 270$ for my green one brand new on sale), the seller's 320$ price is too high.

(b) Paddle length:
A function of shoulder width, arm length and overall strength, so bear this in mind when listening to anybody's recommendation. That said, a few people I know recently switched to longer paddles (around 200 cm) and larger blade areas, and really like the increased propulsion power and the increased purchase on water when rolling and bracing that the longer shaft affords. But the folks in question also have strong upper bodies.

(c) Straight vs bent shaft, durability:
Straight paddles are both lighter and more robust, as there is no particular spot along the shaft that will get damaged. Bent shafts on the other hand will likely get scratched right at the 'bends' if the paddle is thrown on rocks etc. That will be where they eventually break, as lighweight composite materials are somewhat sensitive to the state of the surface: scratches act as weak points. One way to solve the problem is by extending the rubber wrapping over the bends areas, allowing to monitor wear. Great stuff: plumber's 'Magic Wrap'  from Canadian Tire. Has no glue but sticks to itself when stretched: read the instructions!
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/magic-wrap-0670300p.html 

(d) Straight vs bent shaft, safety:
Straight paddles will cause, for some, a painful bump on the metacarpal/proximal phalange thumb joints. Also, without aggressive indexing, it is very difficult to know the orientation of a straight shaft when wearing gloves or mitts. I find that a bit unnerving and clearly unsafe. Others don't mind, including many old paddlers. Bent shafts, on the other hand, give constant feedback as to their orientation, even underwater or with thick gloves. Especially with Magic Tape! As for wrist angles, the difference isn't as huge as one might think.

(e) Twist or feathering:
Complex issue here. Basically it comes down to personal preference. But some things need to be stated. Let me speak in parables...

--Ever heard the one about the young wife cutting off a part of the turkey/roast/whatever before cooking it in the oven? She got it from her mother, who got it from her mother... They 'knew' it had something to do with making the thing tastier/juicer/drier/whatever. The punch line: old great-grandmother laughing as she recalls that the only pan she had was too small to hold a complete roast so she had to cut off a bit of it. A funny illustration of 'post hoc rationalization'. Many sports-related (and others) concepts seem to be related to that.

--Racing bicycle frame makers were still insisting, into the 1990s, on putting horizontal dropouts in their frames, fully three decades after the invention of the derailleur made these obsolete. See image below. Before the invention of the derailleur, with 2 or 3 gears, the axle needed to be moved back and forth when changing gear. Many would defend these as a component of a 'classic' racing frame, some sort of necessity or performance enhancer, there for a currently good reason. Despite no actual evidence of effectiveness. This argument sounds like a 'post hoc rationalization' of a vestigial feature. It took the relatively young mountain biking community to question the 'common knowledge' of a very conservative racing bike community and nowadays racing bikes no longer come with horizontal dropouts.

--Same thing about negative angle stems. See 2nd image below. In a situation where every gram saved is worth it, why the extra material required, compared to a positive angle stem, stayed there for so long is a mystery...

Let's be careful here. The market for whitewater paddles is a lot smaller than for bicycles, for instance. A few manufacturers can have a big influence, because the average paddler needs to buy a commercially available paddle. When somebody famous/owner of a big company/whoever says he/she likes/sells more paddles having a certain amount of twist, you have a self-reinforcing situation. Many would defend that as some sort of performance enhancer. Despite zero actual evidence of effectiveness whatsoever. This reminds me--if you can get a few charismatic/popular athletes to start wearing some kind of silly colourful tape, you can bet amateurs will buy the stuff en masse and you will have a commercial success. Many would defend that as some sort of performance enhancer. Despite no actual evidence of effectiveness.

One more thing: as far as I know, there is no evidence supporting the statemtent that the wrist rotations required by a feathered paddle are desireable at all. This argument sounds like another 'post hoc rationalization' of a vestigial feature.

As far as can be seen, humans are left-right symmetrical. And there is no prevalence of left- or right-direction features on rivers and man-made courses. We're not talking about Indianapolis racing, where right turns are unheard of. The argument made by some slalom paddlers that a certain amount of twist is useful to clear gates fails. Because whatever advantage there could be on one side is a disadvantage on the other side. This also sounds like a 'post hoc rationalization' of a vestigial feature. And in whitewater, the wind is not an issue so 90 degree paddles? Hmmm....

In all fairness, there is however a very small advantage in having a so-called 'right-twist' (the majority of paddle commercially available): if your roll is the so-called 'offside' sweep roll, during which the left hand does the arc, the paddle twist makes it easier for the blade to have a climbing angle. But since most folks roll on the other side, well, you get the point.

It seems to me that the situation for paddle twist is analoguous to the racing bicycles: It took the relatively young whitewater paddling community to question the 'common knowledge' of a very conservative sea kayak and slalom community, but nowadays one thing is clear: the amount of twist in commercially available whitewater paddles has steadily declined over the years from 90 degrees down to essentially zero. Unfortunately, some manufacturers still insist on NOT offering a zero twist option. We'll see what the market will do, but I do not have much hope since the whitewater market is not the bicycle market.

Anyway, it comes down to personal preference and commercial availability. I use a bright green 200 cm AT Eddy that I bought on sale for around 300$, tax included. It has supposedly around 12 degrees of twist, but because of its design peculiarity, that twist feels more like 5 degrees. I would like to have an expensive zero degree carbon paddle from a 'premium' manufacturer. I even once asked for a quote (3 years ago). I am still waiting... That said, paying 584$ + tax ~ 660$ for a Werner Double Diamond Bent Shaft paddle that I might break or lose (it is black, after all) seems like a silly option. 

About that peculiarity... I took me a while to understand the manufacturer's answer to the question that was asked of them by some paddlers a while ago, as to why they do not offer a zero offset option. It turns out that AT paddles bent shafts are a bit peculiar: the two halves of the paddles are not simply mirror images of each others, they have different amounts of angular offset between the bent 'handle' part and the blade. So they could not be re-glued to have zero offset. as to other manufacturers, I might be wrong here, but I believe that the two halves of Werner paddles are in fact mirror images of each others, so could be re-glued/assembled as zero offset.

Have fun shopping!

--C.



« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 03:34:13 AM by ChristianG »

Offline DominiqueP

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2017, 11:16:17 AM »
Straight is cheaper though!

Straight is also lighter. A bit. Coming from a canoe paddle, the kayak paddle always seems heavy, I figure a few extra grams (71g difference for the powerhouse) might make a diffrence on a full day on the river. Maybe it's just in my head... I don't know.

Powerhouse streight: 999g
Pouwerhouse bent: 1070g
I didn't weigh them, these are the specs on the Werner site.

Offline Francois Leclerc

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2017, 10:49:55 AM »
Here's my view... considering you can afford two paddles. I just went through this process and ordered a new creeking paddle.

Thanks for that in-depth explanation Luc! Much appreciated.

Offline lafreniere.luc

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2017, 09:42:03 AM »
Here's my view... considering you can afford two paddles. I just went through this process and ordered a new creeking paddle.

Length: I'm 5'8". I use a 194cm paddle for playboating and a 197cm for creeking. The biggest difference for the length in my opinion is the extra security it provides on the river. You have that extra length for bracing and rolling (a bit more leverage) and helps make it count at those times. As for simply planting the paddle in the water, there's a slight difference, but it's not huge if you ask me. But I'm sure it does help. When playboating, you're mostly just dipping your paddle in the water when surfing. You're also in a smaller boat... so shorter paddles make sense. I debated going to a 200cm for creeking and staying at 194cm for playboating, but decided instead to do a bigger blade.

Blade size: I opted for "bigger is better" for creeking. Obviously that's not always the case, but for me it is. So instead of going to a longer paddle for extra leverage when creeking, I JUST ordered a Werner Powerhouse which has a huge blade as compared to other paddles. My logic is that it will provide more power when bracing and rolling, key requirements in my world ;) Yes, it provides more power than I need when doing strokes, but I can plant as little or as much as I want to increase/reduce that effect.

Offset: Yeah, I've tried 0 degree offset, 12, 15 and 30... plus 45 and 90 in a sea kayak. I got used to all of them after a while. But I have to admit, I really like the 12-15 deg. It's interesting what the expert responded to Seamus. Good info, thanks Seamus!

Material: Well, now that I've snapped a shaft on the St-Regis, cracked a blade, and got excessive wear and tear on carbon blades, I have come to the same conclusion that the more "experienced" boaters have. Go with fibre glass blades for creeking. Carbon is pretty and light, etc. But it does not wear nicely at all. I've had mine delaminate, crack, edging receiving major damage (man I'm hard on blades lol), etc. So for creeking and with the amount of rock scraping, I chose fibre glass blades with carbon shaft. It seems to be a nice compromise.

Bent vs straight: wow, I have no idea how people paddle with straight (obviously it's possible) shafts. So many pros and others use straight shafts. I tried them and I was constantly planting my blades at the wrong angle. In fact, at one point I almost flipped when I went to put my weight into a stroke and my blade went in on an angle with very little resistance. I find it hard to figure out the orientation of the blade, even with oval shafts... especially when wearing mitts or gloves. With that being said, I believe it's a matter of getting used to it... but I tried, and couldn't. Chalk it up to personal preference. Straight is cheaper though! Also, I'm fairly convinced that bent shafts cause excess wear around the pinky finger area when placed on hard, flat surfaces like roads, rocks, etc. I keep noticing that when shafts snap, it seems to often be in that area. Christian had theorized that the scratches in this area (because it often makes contact with ground when putting paddles on surfaces) would damage the resin and weaken this area. Carbon is strong as long as the resin is strong as well. It makes a lot of sense. With that being said, I'm just extra careful about putting my paddle on the ground and such now.

Colour: Why oh why do manufacturers insist on making paddles black! lol Ok, not all paddles, but many are. I highly recommend choosing a paddle with some brighter colours if possible, if not, do what I do and put some bright duct tape on it or something of the sort. Luckily the Powerhouse is offered with red blades, so I'll be able to avoid the bright duct tape with this one. Also, red makes you paddle faster, it's a fact. ;)


Offline coolfarmer816

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2017, 07:43:57 PM »
si tu veut pratiquer avec un kayak médium je peux te prêter mon karma mais je ne le vend pas :)

Wow, j'espère que tu vas guérir rapidement! Au moins tu as des kayaks que tu peux utiliser

Merci Dominique. C'est ça que ça fait 35 ans de coups de pieds de karaté! lol  Maintenant il faut vraiment que j'apprenne à bien esquimauter c'est petites bébêtes là si je veux avoir du fun à ALF cette année. J'sais pas pourquoi, mais ça me donne un peu la chienne de faire du kayak! lol

Offline Seamus

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2017, 10:34:00 AM »
Offset

Here is response I received from Danny Mongo of Werner paddles when I asked about offset:

hi Seamus

I am the product expert for Werner Paddles, I hope I can help.
 
Feather angle is personal preference and the arguments you hear, often SO passionate in favor of their own beliefs, often have little merit from an instructional stand point.  Little to no proof exists that one is better than another. The original feather angle, 90 degrees, was started with slalom kayaking and since it was so extreme on the wrist paddle manufactures just slowly worked backwards.  R45 is still the standard and best-selling, R30 is very close behind.
 
Where you live, you could not give away an R30-or 45 because a small crew of boaters on the Ottawa, circa the late 90’s, started the R12-15 trend.   A bigger feather angle does match the bodies torso rotation, so a smaller feather angle does make sense for a cold region, play boat based paddler group that rotates less than down water paddlers and racers.
 
Man, a lot of words to try to explain why the debate exists.  At the end of the day it comes down to what I said at first, it is about what feels best to you.
 
Where did you lose your paddle on the Moose?  I paddle there a lot, such a great river.  Sorry you had the bad experience.
 
Thanks for your support Seamus!

 
Danny Mongno
Marketing Manager
danny.mongno@wernerpaddles.com
425-314-6539
www.wernerpaddles.com

Offline Francois Leclerc

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2017, 10:20:37 AM »
Ok then, let's open the debate on paddle blade offset, blade size, straight shaft of bent and material...One paddle for river running/creeking and play boating.  :)

Offline Francois Leclerc

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2017, 10:07:57 AM »
hi Frank, sorry to hear about your knee.
I am a little shorter than you, 5'8", but about the same weight. I have used a 197 Werner Double Diamond for both playboating and creeking.

Thanks Seamus, one thing I know is that from my very little kayaking experience I like very little blade offset, something more like 15 or 20 degrees. By the way, did I ever send you the picture I made of you on the Eagle?

Offline DominiqueP

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2017, 09:44:01 AM »
You haven't opened the debate about offset :)

How about the paddle blade size debate... ;)

Offline Seamus

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2017, 09:32:06 AM »
hi Frank, sorry to hear about your knee.

I am a little shorter than you, 5'8", but about the same weight. I have used a 197 Werner Double Diamond for both playboating and creeking. If you paddle a Project X 64, you might benefit from a little extra length to get around that wide hull.

Look for the link to "Size guide" on this page: http://wernerpaddles.com/paddles/whitewater/double-diamond

You haven't opened the debate about offset :)

Seamus

Offline jonyak

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2017, 12:47:44 PM »
I use a 194 for playboating and a 197 for creeking.

I personally would not want to go much shorter than 194, but its a personal preference.

Offline DominiqueP

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2017, 11:26:01 AM »
Maintenant il faut vraiment que j'apprenne à bien esquimauter c'est petites bébêtes là si je veux avoir du fun à ALF cette année. J'sais pas pourquoi, mais ça me donne un peu la chienne de faire du kayak! lol

Je suis certaine que ça va bien aller, on va se voir en piscine!

Offline Francois Leclerc

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Re: Kayak Paddle Size??
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 11:14:05 AM »
Wow, j'espère que tu vas guérir rapidement! Au moins tu as des kayaks que tu peux utiliser

Merci Dominique. C'est ça que ça fait 35 ans de coups de pieds de karaté! lol  Maintenant il faut vraiment que j'apprenne à bien esquimauter c'est petites bébêtes là si je veux avoir du fun à ALF cette année. J'sais pas pourquoi, mais ça me donne un peu la chienne de faire du kayak! lol